Brewing Marketing Insights: AI, TikTok, and the Future of Social Media

Mmm.

That's good.

And welcome to a new episode of Digital Coffee Marketing brew, part of the digital cafe media that I'm doing.

But this week I have Neil with me, and he is an expert in digital marketing, social media.

He also has his own podcast.

And for full transparency, we did do a few interviews with another podcast.

So for me, it's great to see him again because it's been a little while.

But yes, we did another podcast, but we're going to be talking about everything from YouTube podcasting to AI to everything that's going on within the digital marketing space that is important to all of us.

So welcome to the show, Neil.

Hey, thanks, Brett.

It's great to see you and an honor to be here.

And the first question I asked all my guests from my new audience is, are you a coffee or tea drinker?

Oh, I am definitely coffee, without a doubt.

And I mean, do people ask you, Brett, how many cups you drink a day?

No, they really don't.

It's about, should I?

Okay.

Okay.

So, client, yesterday, I told her, you know, I'm on my first cup of coffee.

She goes, oh, I'm on my 8th.

I'm like, wow.

I mean, I've been told I drink a lot of coffee, but I have gone down from five to four.

And iii.

Are you at four?

I do three.

I do three.

I cut off a three.

Yeah, that's good.

I.

I should cut off that fourth one.

Yeah.

I mean, it's some.

Some days it's a struggle where it's like, maybe I do four, but usually I'm consistently just three and then I'm done.

That's.

Ma'am, that's.

I don't have the.

I don't.

I don't have the will to do that.

I'm not strong enough to do that.

But I'm going to try to be more like you.

It's fair.

But can you summarize your expert, your expertise to our audience?

Yeah.

So I am.

Well, the name of my podcast is your digital marketing coach.

And I think that sort of sums up.

I really help businesses through strategy implementation, a lot of education.

I've written a few books, teaching a few universities, and I cover a wide spectrum of topics.

My first two books were about LinkedIn.

My third was about social media marketing strategy.

My most recent was about influencer marketing.

My fifth book, which I'm still very, very early, but I really wanted to be the post Covid digital marketing playbook for a new generation of creators and entrepreneurs and what have you.

So, yeah, I just love.

I mean, that's sort of my role in the world, and I love to help businesses just generate more relationships, obviously, more business and I, and more benefits from all the different amazing things you could do in all the different areas of digital marketing.

True.

So, I mean, when we last talk on PR 360, and you guys want to check that out, please check out his interviews over there.

We did.

We, it felt like there was a lot of just transitioning between social media.

I mean, it's always transitioning, but it was a, it was a weird time because we were kind of, I think your first interview were at the cusp of COVID or kind of not there yet, and then the second one, yeah, we were like, firmly planted into Covid.

So it was a very interesting time in, in general.

But what do you think is the current state of social media right now?

Well, I think that every year there is something new I've been doing.

It's funny, I was just featured in a LinkedIn post on their 20th anniversary.

So this is what, you know, marketing leaders think about the transition of LinkedIn over 20 years.

And literally may the fourth be with you.

May 4 is when they launched 20 years ago.

So quite serendipitous.

But I started this whole digital market in social media marketing with LinkedIn in primarily 2008, moving into Twitter, Facebook 2009.

Obviously, Instagram coming out 2013.

We had MySpace go out, we had stumble upon, we had Google, we had clubhouse during COVID Obviously, we have TikTok, we have Reddit, which has not gone away.

So it's been interesting to see how things change.

But there is always a new generation of people that want their own social media, that they think everything else out there is just for older people, or they don't want to be looked at, or they have their own trends.

So TikTok is just an example of that is a platform for a generation.

I suppose Instagram might be a platform for a generation.

Facebook has definitely turned into a platform for older generation.

LinkedIn has been able to sort of transcend all this.

But, you know, I would say that TikTok really is the big disrupter in the industry, as we all know.

And it's really forced every other platform to embrace short form video because it is a main way in which we engage.

And it's really interesting because I have an 18 year old and a 16 year old, and my wife just gets really pissed off of how much time they spend on TikTok and just scrolling and Instagram reels as well.

But.

But I think back to my childhood, it's their tv.

My mom got pissed at me for watching too much cartoons.

At least these kids are watching something.

I mean, it's entertaining.

There's also education.

There's a lot of stuff mixed in there.

So, yes, we were addicted to tv.

They're addicted to TikTok.

With tv, you could turn it off, unplug it.

With TikTok, it's sort of always with you.

So there is.

There are things that we need to do to better educate.

And I do think, and I have seen people, people end up with mental health issues because of social media, without a doubt.

So it definitely affects them.

But if it's not TikTok, it's gonna be something else.

Right?

And I see this huge disconnect between people in Congress talking about TikTok as if they were from outer space.

Like, does this connect to the Internet?

And meanwhile, you have a generation, you have tens of millions of people that are on it every day for several hours a day, and you have big brands that are on it as well, that are, that are advertising on it.

And then I go to conferences and I meet people.

I meet TikTok employees.

Right?

And they're like you and me, Brett.

They're.

They're.

They're really smart individuals that are doing a great job.

And tick tock has become the most innovative social media.

So it.

This is just this huge disconnect when we talk about banning it.

And does the data end up in the hands of the chinese government?

Maybe.

I don't know.

Right.

And are there workarounds?

I would think so.

And we already moved the data servers, you know, to the US with President Trump some time ago.

But a complete ban of it, to me, just is.

It just seems really bizarre and out of place.

And I think right now, Brett, I know this is something else, what we should be talking about, because what's top of mind with every marketer?

I think a year or two ago, we had the emergence of clubhouse.

So we've always had tick tock.

Right.

We had the emergency clubhouse social audio that came and went.

It was a temporary Covid thing.

Right.

Um, and then we had the whole NFT web thing, web three thing.

And there's still some people that are all about that.

I think that's very much as a concept.

I buy into it, and in the future, I see its potential.

But in 2022, 2023, you're still way ahead of what people are ready.

Metaverse, the same.

I never bought it in the metaverse.

People once were out of COVID Yeah, you're always going to get.

We had second life.

We've been there, done that.

Right?

But AI is truly a revolutionary technology.

Well, I should say evolutionary cause it's been around.

We've already had machine learning.

Google has been using AI.

They all use AI in their algorithms, right?

In fact, this TikTok algorithm that we all talk about, YouTube was always doing that.

You always got more views from non subscribers than subscribers.

Like with TikTok, they're always trying to find the viewer for your content based on your content, not your follower account.

So TikTok one upped YouTube on that.

But AI is something because it's not just marketing, it's business, it's education, it's life.

And if I was in Washington, DC, I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about the potential for AI to do harm than I would about TikTok being harm.

That's just between you and me.

But I do think that AI is really significant in that it actually makes a lot of marketing more accessible.

You want to be able to copyright, like Gary Vaynerchuk, you can, right?

You want to be able to write, you know, ten different versions of Facebook ad copy that have a way of resonating with your audience.

You can.

So I think for entrepreneurs, for small businesses, for startups, it is, it is absolute heaven.

And it's going to allow a lot of smaller teams to do a lot more with a lot less budget.

You don't need a team of 20 writers that Cubs bot has or a team of 20 social media content creators that Gary Vaynerchuk has to be able to do the work of 20 people from a content perspective.

And it's content now.

They're working on video.

You can use it for coding, for ideation, obviously, for, you know, education.

We're seeing it.

It becomes this amazing assistant that is smarter than anyone else in the world.

And should you know how to use it and should you need help with it, it can become extremely powerful.

So that, that, I think is really top of mind.

I know today at the White House, Congress is having, or I said Congress is having a meeting with high tech leaders about AI because it does have this.

You know, we just had the founder of AI, Google, just quit Google over this because he's worried about the future.

But I say the here and now, it's something that everybody listening to this should just start to find different ways in your business.

And every AI, we're not talking about chat GPT, we're talking about companies that are tapping into that and providing more value and providing a more refined solution.

And everyone, even between Google, Bard and Chat GPT, you're going to get vastly different results, but you can type in two different things and you're going to get vastly different results as well.

So right now, you really need to be playing around with it and figuring out where, not just in your marketing, but in your business might you be, and in your personal life, where you might be able to use this not to do better work, but to free up more time or to be able to do the things you've never been able to do.

That's the way I don't want you to go out and like, publish 100 blog posts tomorrow because Google will penalize you and it'll be very clear that all of a sudden you're using AI to write those blog posts.

So, you know, SEO is not going to be your best friend.

But, but that's where I see right now, you know, tick tock, the disruptor.

And that's sort of now.

What's next with tick tock?

We don't know.

They're probably going to try to do TikTok, shopping, e commerce.

Will they try to go after Shopify?

Not sure.

But AI is really top of mind, I would say, regardless of, you know, what marketing you're doing.

And that's where I would be.

Seriously, there's, you know, for, there are AI specific tools for LinkedIn, for Pinterest, for Twitter, for creating video scripts, for podcast.

I upload the audio RSS feed of a podcast.

It'll shoot me out the transcript we have.

AI could already do that.

It shoots me out the show notes, timestamps, suggested tweets, suggested email newsletter copy, and on and on and on.

Right.

And so we're seeing a lot of smart entrepreneurs create very, very sophisticated tools that are really good at doing one good thing that can really help you and free up a lot of time to do more strategic things.

So I know that was a long answer, but that's where, if you want to keep your finger on the pulse of marketing today, what people are talking about right now, it's TikTok second, AI first.

A few months ago, really, obviously with chat, GPT, last October, November, it just took over.

TikTok is still out there in B.

Two B.

LinkedIn is obviously still out there, still very engaging.

Um, Twitter.

Oh, we could talk a lot about Twitter.

Um, I've just seen a significant decrease.

I think Twitter and Pinterest are two social networks that have become a lot less relevant over the last twelve months.

I think Elon Musk buying Twitter made it really relevant to elon Musk fans.

Um, and, you know, quote unquote free speech peeps.

But to a mass, vast majority of people, I think I just see more people that are canceling their Twitter, that are diagnosed.

I see less engagement, less clicks, all those things of a declining, you know, part of its declining algorithm, but also just declining.

A social network in decline still has potential, but, um.

And if you're in b two b, and if, if you're, you know, there are certain audiences that are still very active there, but, you know, if I was going to advertise for b two C, Twitter would not be my first or second choice.

For b two B, I don't even know if it would be my second choice anymore, and I would always say it's a second choice.

So that's, I think, Brett, we covered a lot of the social networks.

What do you say?

Did I, did I cover?

I mean, and we can go even deeper into pay to play verification or why do some things go, you know, whenever I log into Twitter, I see Elon Musk tweets first, even though I don't follow the dude.

So clearly, there's some algorithm tweaking that's favoring some people over others.

But.

But, you know, that's.

That's sort of where I see it today.

Brett, does that, does that satisfy your curiosity and is it sort of aligned with what you see as well?

Yeah, I mean, for the most part, I feel like.

And we'll just get into this with Twitter.

I mean, Twitter is an interesting space because I don't feel like it's all of Elon's fault.

I do think the previous management kind of did a lot of missteps to make it less relevant.

So, for example, they had vine.

They didn't know how to use vine at all.

They got rid of it.

They had periscope.

They kind of had.

It didn't really do much to it, got rid of it.

So I feel like, and I'm.

This is not me saying Elon is the most best person.

He's going to turn around Twitter.

I just feel like he bought a sinking ship and he's just trying to plug holes in the sinking ship.

He did.

He was forced into it, probably.

Probably just throughout the idea, didn't realize it would have to become reality, is my take.

I think Elon genuinely loves Twitter, and he's always been a big user of it, so he clearly understands it.

And I think that a lot of what he does, he has the right intent, but I think it becomes very personal, very emotional.

And when he's voted, when he put up the poll, should I step down as CEO?

And the majority said yes.

We're still sort of waiting for that to happen.

I think as an advisor to guide the ship, he's amazed, but I don't think he's, he should be micromanaging to where he, where it seems like he is today.

So, you know, I still have hope and I'm still on Twitter, I'm still invested in it.

I haven't given up.

I'm not on Mastodon or any of the other places.

I've been there, done that.

So it has the potential.

But I do agree with you.

And it's funny, I see this with a lot of social media tools, companies or marketing technology where they just stop innovating and Twitter just stopped innovating, right?

And I see this with tools, it's like, oh, now we support TikTok.

Well, other technology has supported it like a year ago, or I see tools that I use that have just added AI functionality.

They're not asking any more for it, they're just plugging in chat GPT, creating some templates and allowing you to, to create better content.

And I see other platforms that have just not even started with AI.

And three months from now, they're probably going to start and come up with a big press release campaign.

And it's like, dude, where have you been?

So I think that we as people need to be innovative, and as marketers, we need to continue to be innovative and we need to make sure our businesses are innovative and we don't get set in the same, the status quo, because the world is always changing, right?

Just all this talk about social media, we've seen all the change, generations change, man, just talking to my, talking to my high school kids are like just defining what cancel culture is and the different definitions that different generations have of it.

And it's like, I just want to complain on Twitter.

They're like, no, that's canceled.

I'm like, I'm not.

Every complaint is not a cancel anyway.

I don't want to get into that, but it's just, you know, there is just different ways in which people engage on social media.

They put different meanings between behind follows and likes and what they click through on and what they perceive as an ad and what they don't.

So we always, as marketers, just always need to be sharp and have our ears, you know, outside and be on these networks and really experience them.

I had a conversation today with someone on LinkedIn, he goes, you know, Neil, based on your advice, I bought this tool.

I love it.

It's gotten really expensive, but I love the fact that it has this inbox where it brings in all my notifications and messages.

And I realized, pre Covid, that I needed to be in the networks, that these tools were removing me, and I wasn't able to see the trends.

I wasn't able to see like Twitter threads or these other things in the tool.

So I completely missed out on what is happening now, as Twitter says, when it prompts you.

And so I just stopped using the tool for engagement.

I need.

I go into each network every day so that I get a flavor for it.

I see what's trending in the timeline, and I've become a better user, better engager, more knowledgeable.

And I think this is something that a lot of marketers miss out on, is they don't actually use these networks.

They don't reach out to influencers themselves and try to develop relationships.

They use agencies.

They don't try to organically do things.

They just pay money for ads.

And I think if they would just spend a little bit of time on TikTok, seeing that it's not just Gen Z and that it is a legit search engine for Gen Z, if they begin to see things a little bit, you know, spend more time there, I think that's the best education that anyone can have.

I'd say the same with podcasting.

Do a search when you know, Brad, I know you're a huge podcasting fan.

So am I.

When I meet with clients and I'm like, do a search in your industry, you'd be surprised how many podcasts are there.

There's, there is an audience, right?

And, you know, podcasting allows you.

I'm like, hey, use podcasting to bring on your next client.

Use it as a way to network with potential clients.

Bring them right?

There's so many savvy ways to use it.

And podcasting is that, you know, it's steady.

It's like YouTube.

It's, it's always out there.

You know, we have YouTube adding podcast playlists and then letting support pod.

I've actually, my take, Brett, is that with AI, creating great textual content becomes a lot easier, I think, to have unique perspectives and experience is what Google is going to look for, what readers are going to look for.

But I think it just, it makes video all the more important.

And that's why I'm sort of doubling down audio as well.

But I'm really doubling down on YouTube this year as a response to aih.

Yeah, I mean, it's agreed.

I mean, even going back to the Twitter thing, I mean, we discussed before show, but like, Tucker Carlson did his, his video only on Twitter, which was an interesting little, little thing.

He only did it on Twitter, which everybody watch in, I think in the 08:00 hour when he originally had his show, it beat out his 08:00 hour from the actual host that was actually doing it live.

He beat it out by like millions of views.

So are we seeing like a new version of, are we seeing like a next level of social media becoming that?

Because I just, for podcasting specifically, I just read a Pew study that said that, like, a majority of podcast listeners view podcast hosts as being, or they want them to be accurate when they get their news from there.

It's not.

And they less so from actual cable news.

So are we seeing that next evolution?

Wherever, when you watch somebody on YouTube, Twitter or whatever, you're hoping and you really have that trust that they're going to be accurate because that's where people are getting most of their news.

Now.

That is a really, really great question.

I think that, yeah, everybody is searching for their own source of truth.

And just over the last several years, and not just social media, but just mass media, I grew up sort of respecting media, and I still respect media, but it can be taken advantage of on both sides not to get political and by people with their own interests.

And that's what really worries me and a lot of people about AI, is that it could do the same thing a lot better, a lot more intelligently, a lot more believable, and think about foreign governments taking it over, et cetera, et cetera.

So that's sort of the fear there.

Um, you know, because people are searching for their source of truth.

You, if you, you need to provide that to them.

Right?

And people are, you know, the tv celebrities of yesterday are the TikTok influencers, the youtubers of today.

So there's a responsibility that comes with it.

But yes, I do think you have the power of 100 Tucker Carlsons on Twitter, on YouTube, on TikTok becoming the voice of a new generation.

I mean, you sort of see that with Gary Vaynerchuk.

I think more recently on TikTok, we have Alex Hormozi.

I mean, there is, and I'd say Elon Musk on Twitter, there are people I like to challenge.

Like when Elon Musk tweets something, if I agree with it, I'll retweet it.

That's awesome job.

When I disagree with it and I'll tweet out a disagreement and then I'll get his fans, like, just like, you know, just coming after.

Right.

It's like we need to have a rational, like, you know, no one person is a goddess.

No one person is a higher, no one person is perfect.

People make mistakes, and that's okay.

That makes us human.

So I think it's sort of dangerous that people blindly follow, whether it's to the left or the right, whether it's an Elon Musk, Tucker Carlson.

Pick anyone.

I think it's really dangerous.

And it actually fuels these people to do more of those videos on Twitter, more on YouTube, to maybe spend a little bit of paid advertising to get more traction.

And that's sort of, I don't know, it's a little scary to me that we've, that social media, if we take a step back, has really enabled that.

It's enabled division between people.

It's enabled people with potentially crazy ideas, dangerous ideas to be able to have a really, really loud voice.

I mean, the loud voice can be used for good or it could be used for bad.

So, you know, at some point, will there be more social media regulation?

I know that Elon is against that, although he also banned a lot of people and put a lot of restrictions on.

But I think at a certain point, we're probably going to see more of it.

Right.

I think with AI, we're definitely going to see regulation.

With influencer marketing, we've seen increasing regulation.

I think that's only going to go up.

I think we have to do something for the benefit of all.

And if we find that there's something dangerous or something harmful, we as a society need to do something.

We'll see how it plays out.

I mean, yeah, even going with marketing, and we can talk more about just like, the education way, because, I mean, we've, we found studies now that social media isn't great for younger kids, which, I mean, it only started when I was 18, so I was the older millennials that we didn't have that problem because we didn't have it until we were already, quote unquote, adults.

I mean, you're 18 as you're adult in the United States, but, yeah, of course.

But there is that interesting thing of, like, like, I get that we have to, like, meet our marketers, have to meet their goals.

I get that.

I get that you have to meet your sales goals.

You want to make sure that you're looking good in the company.

But is there kind of like an education of like where's the line on this one?

How much should we use AI?

How much should we target an audience?

18 below or, I know some states are now starting to actually start to ban some of this stuff or actually start to actually request that whatever age they want to do that, you can't be on social media.

So where's the line on markers as well?

Because I mean, we do use this stuff all the time and it's fine.

And I get that the, that we need to use this, but is there kind of like a moral obligation for us not to like, I mean, it's ethical too.

So where's that line?

It's always gray.

Should we do this?

Should we do that?

How much should we use AI?

How much should we target younger audiences?

And I, maybe we should almost do like a brand guidelines for influencer marketing on like what you should be looking for.

Like, I guess empower the audience is probably with a better marketing and pr position than anything else.

Yeah.

You know, the question of ethics has really come about with AI.

There was some of it with influencer marketing, some of it with targeting.

But at the end of the day, if the platforms give you the ability to do it, marketers are going to take advantage of it.

And I think with the way that retargeting and app tracking work, it was still anonymous.

Right.

But AI clearly sort of takes the ethical question to a new level.

I'd say the other ethical question, which I still have, which I wish more marketers did have, which is buying lists and sending out a hundred thousand or a few hundred thousand cold emails and then automatically, you know, following up when people don't respond even though they never expressed intent, interest.

And there is, you know, the can spam act regarding email marketing.

But there, there is a workaround saying that, you know, it's not transactional, it's relationship building.

And it's okay to do, to send one email so long as they have the ability to unsubscribe.

So it's, but it's an ethical issue.

Like should you be spamming people?

Should you be contacting people that haven't opted in, is the question.

So if you're retargeting people that came to your website, I mean, they came to your website, I think it's totally okay.

If you're tapping into Facebook's database that says there are people interested in this and you're targeting them in that, I think that's totally okay.

But AI is really interesting and I actually went to Jasper as one of these leading tools for marketers in AI.

They had the first generative AI conference, which is AI for content creation basically in San Francisco.

I think it was like February 15 or might have been Valentine's Day.

So I was in the room attending that there was this buzz in the room.

It was just like the Internet was born and everybody was so excited about it.

There were venture capitalists there and OpenAI was there and it was an amazing event and enterprise leaders.

And there was also a talk by the VP of marketing for Jasper.

She said, okay, marketers, don't blow it.

AI can allow you to create 100 x more content in one 100th of the time, but don't do that.

There's all these other parts of content creation where AI can help you.

Ideation, research, editing, you have distribution, like are there other social networks you should be on?

Are you properly promoting your content?

Like use, don't just look at it for content creation, look at it as a way to save up time for content creation, to invest in other areas.

And I think that's a really great, it's not necessarily an ethical issue because, you know, there are some things that brands do.

So as a fractional CMO, I've, I have clients that are on Amazon, so they have these Amazon listings and I found AI to be a great way to flesh out really quickly an Amazon listing, especially if you're not a natural writer.

One of my clients, the person marketing, is actually dyslexic.

So to be able to use a tool like that is extremely successful.

I have a paid mastermind, one of my members is blind.

So for her to be able to use chat GPT as a godsend, right?

So sometimes we think of the bad, there's also a lot of good.

But yeah, I think that there are some functions, very, very short form content, spin, ad copy, that AI is brilliant, right?

Ideation, coming up with ideas, helping you do research.

But there are other things where at the end of the day people are going to be able to read through that.

It was AI, it's only a matter of time.

There's already AI checkers out there if you're a teacher that you can use or if you have like guest blog posts.

So I think at the end of the day it's you're gonna have to create your own brand voice.

And I know that Jasper just announced brand voice with AI of trying to craft, but at the end of the day what's going to resonate with people is the personality.

And AI does not have a personality.

It's all vanilla.

So, you know, the best marketing is still going to be the people that they use AI for parts of it.

But at the end of the day, the most important copy that's customer facing is probably still going to be human written.

Gotcha.

And then going on to AI.

Like, I use AI for show notes because I never like writing show notes for podcasts.

It's like the, it's like the one thing like, uh, I use that I found like an appsumo.

If you don't know, if our audience, my audience doesn't know.

Appsumo is a place where you can buy subscription things for a lifetime type of a thing.

So it helps with the bottom line of like, not always having to do all these subscriptions.

I mean, DaVinci Resolve, their beta has auto a, auto generated transcriptions baked into it when you actually export it, or you can do it through the edit tab, and it's actually pretty accurate as well.

And you also have Riverside has their own transcriptions that use AI as well.

So I do think you're right.

I think within the parameters of, like, look, I need help with ideas.

I need help with doing transcripts because it's not fun.

Doing a 30 minutes to an hour video and having to write the transcripts, that's not fun.

That's like, that's a lot of typing.

So is, it's just going to get better?

And how should marketers actually be utilizing this more?

Because I do think that the next marketers are going to be the ones or the ones that keep their jobs are going to be ones knowing how to use AI.

Is that the best way of saying it?

I agree 100%.

So I think that, yes, that that's how you're going to stay employed, but also think of a.

As a way to scale.

So, for instance, I have a va in the Philippines.

I used to have her do the show notes.

I can now easily do it myself.

And I think I am able to maintain the quality as well because I understand the prompts.

Probably the tool that I use allows me to ask it to revise it based on first person versus third person or what have you.

So I think it's going to allow marketers to do more.

So that's why they need to understand prompt engineering and the way that different prompts work, but also that they need to continually be focused on high value work and strategic work, and let AI be the muscle for a lot of other things.

But at the end of the day, if you're just managing the AI, well, anyone else can do that.

So it's going to come down to the value of your work and that high value add work, strategic work, that's where you need to be.

But anything below that, that you can find ways to use the AI to do it better or to do it faster.

That, that I think is the sweet spot, is the combination.

Gotcha.

And then moving on to like actual, like podcasting.

Like, I just actually, yesterday I was, there's, iHeartRadio brought out their stats and then cumulus media brought out their stats on podcasting, which is interesting.

Oh, cool.

I haven't seen one I found.

Yeah, I'll send it to you after the show and you can look at, I got the decks.

But one said that there's more subscribers for podcasting than Netflix.

It was like 80 something million to, it was, it was a huge discrepancy, even though a lot of podcasts are free, so that's easier to become a subscriber.

Just Americans, I don't think, I don't.

Think I saw the actual like italics.

It just, it's probably just you.

United States, they're probably focusing on, I'm pretty sure, because it's easier.

I think it's them, it's easier to figure that part out.

But still was interesting also, the other one said that the median age for podcasting is 34.

Interesting.

So it's a very, it's a very young ish thing.

They said tv was like 49 and then radio was way, way, way older.

I think was like 59, 60 or something like that.

So as marketers, we should probably be looking this, like we should target the ads because this is the younger generation.

And given the fact that everybody cares about the 25 to 45 usually kind of age range, because that's the prime target to actually advertise.

Should, should we really be, should marketers really be caring about this?

Should there's, they start to use more ads?

Because I don't think markers understand, or a lot of them don't understand that podcasting is very long tail.

It's not short tail, it's very long tail.

People will keep and relisten, find you relisten to your old stuff.

Like, it's one of those things where it just always generates interest without a lot of effort.

There is some efforts in the beginning of trying to find the guests, trying to actually write the notes, trying to get all this thing together.

Edit.

But do you think that this is something that more marketers should do?

I know there's already a lot of interest but I think there should be even more interest just because of the, I guess the young demographic plus just how many people listen to it and just how many subscribers there are now.

I think that.

And there are some consumer brands.

I know Jack Daniels Whiskey has a podcast about whiskey, but I think for B two B brands, and obviously PR 360 as an example, I think for B two b brands, it has a more compelling value.

And the value gets back to my own work in influencer marketing, which is you have the ability now to connect with thought leaders in your industry by having them on your podcast.

You have the ability to celebrate your customers by having them on your podcast.

You have the ability to deepen relationships with, you know, with potential clients or even employees that are, you know, internal influencers.

So as a relationship building, right like there every year, let's think of 50 relationships that we want to strategize, that we really want to go deep with.

Then that's a podcast.

That's a weekly interview podcast right there.

And what's interesting is that podcast is also the only other medium that is that interviews are very normal and that people will listen to interviews.

You know, I live stream my podcast recently I started doing this on YouTube, and I don't get like the same number of downloads.

But then the Joe Rogan experience gets is like one of the top ten YouTube channels and it's all interviews or him speaking.

So there is a, there should be more interest in doing it.

But I think, Brett, the biggest ROI of podcasting is not in the number of downloads you get from the podcasting app, per se.

And it's not just the relationships, it's also the content.

So it forces you to like, learn and prepare, you know, along the lines of a topic you learn from the people you interview.

It makes you smarter, but you also have content.

And if you record the video, and if you live stream, you now have audio, video, text.

And it's probably the easiest way to start to begin to create a lot of content, which then, you know, including short form video.

It's really sort of the king of the podcast of the content marketing pyramid.

And this is literally my next live, my next solo polycast episode, I'm recording this on Monday, is about this very topic.

It's taken me a while to get there, but since I started livestreaming, I've seen that.

And so you might only get 50 downloads on a podcast app.

But what if you got 100 views on YouTube over time?

What if that helped you increase your YouTube subscribers?

What if you did a LinkedIn live, and you had a few people engage with that, and you created a LinkedIn event for it, which gave you an excuse and your guest excuse to promote it, etc.

Etc.

Etc.

So it has this ripple effect that I think a lot of people don't get.

And it's unique to podcasting.

And I think for that, even for a, b, two C band, for anyone, for a content creator, it has immense value above and beyond just thinking of podcasting as this niche thing.

People are not every day on YouTube, on podcasts, searching for new episodes, they find, as you know from the stats, probably, Brett, they find 6789 shows and they pretty much stick with them.

And it takes them a week to get through the weekly podcast, or in your case, the monthly.

So it's really hard to crack.

So, to your question about podcast advertising, I would say the better way to crack it, I mean, is guests that will share the show, but also what we call podcast swaps of finding people with similar size podcasts.

And, you know, you're on their show, they're on your show.

Because the best thing about podcasts is you're talking to an audience that's already invested in podcasts.

They're already subscribed to this podcast.

So that's actually the best advertising I've found.

And I know, like Jordan Harbinger, who's a famous podcaster.

I mean, he does ad spend as well, pretty aggressively, but he also talks about that that's been extremely effective for him.

And John Lee Dumas and Pat Flynn and some others also will religiously.

Well, John Lee Dumas especially will religiously make sure he appears on all these other podcasts as a way to promote his own podcast as a guest.

And so what's your take on the YouTube Google podcast thing?

Because we have Google podcasts, which was there before, and now Google's like, let's do YouTube.

And I'm like, okay, guys, you got to figure out one thing.

You keep on doing this every single time.

Stop with the two different apps.

Like, it just confuses people.

And I do think in the little bit, long term, probably in the next three to five years, they're probably gonna get rid of Google podcast just because it has, like a 2%.

Like, people, like 2% of podcast listeners listen to Google podcasts.

It doesn't really.

I agree.

I agree.

Yeah, Google podcast is sort of a fail.

But, um, YouTube is one of the.

I'm really fond of YouTube.

I mean, they were the TikTok before TikTok.

They created this revenue share.

You know, the partner program of sharing ad revenue, which, you know, it took ten years later for a tick tock to say, we're going to create a creator fund and now all the other social networks are doing it.

But YouTube has been doing it for like a decade, right?

They actually have now a content creator liaison.

They actually, you know, I think they generally want, they invite content creators on the platform and they're doing a lot of education trying to help them.

So I find YouTube to be a very, very pleasant experience as a publisher of content.

And therefore, I think when they say they're going to do something, this is not Google.

I mean, it is Google, but it's YouTube.

When YouTube says they're going to do something, like with shorts, it took it a while to get going, but it's going now.

They sort of, you used to, you know, not have the separate shorts tab, so they did the right thing.

Right.

It took them a while.

Podcast is still very, very early, so, but it does give you the ability to say, okay, I have this many podcast downloads, but then I have this many podcast views on YouTube.

So it does give you a way, if you're putting videos of your podcast up there to start to see the ROI.

We'll see if, you know, if YouTube begins to create more podcast specific discoverability.

I haven't seen it yet, but it does give you the ability to promote your podcast in a very convenient playlist way and to get the analytics on it.

So I like what I see.

And it's so funny because I just started doubling down on YouTube a few months ago and then boom, you know, podcast beta.

I'm like, yes, this is awesome.

And what's really interesting, Brett, I've done podcast advertising.

There are certain players that allow you to do it, but YouTube also has an easy way to promote a video.

So I'm finding it, it's way cheaper to get a subscriber on YouTube than to get a new podcast subscriber.

Now, will every new YouTube subscriber watch every podcast video?

Probably not, but you know, I.

But not every podcast subscriber stays on for a while as well.

But just, it's just so much cheaper.

It's really.

And I'm gonna see how this affects my podcast dials going forward, but it's.

But I've started to put some ad spend towards that to see where it goes.

So I'm really excited.

So do you think podcasts are now going to be video, audio and live?

Do you think those three are going to be the dynamics of it?

Because I did see an article, I didn't see an article a few months ago where some indie podcasters like, no, we aren't touching video.

It's almost like it was, they said it was terrible.

And I'm an indie one.

I'm like, well, I don't think it's terrible.

I think it's an option.

You can do video, but you don't have to do video.

It's not like you're required to do video.

It's just, it gives you a different audience to your podcast because they can actually see you.

And as humans, we like to see faces.

We like to hear voices.

We like that human connection to a certain extent.

I mean, it's still digital, so you have that still separation.

So I, I recorded this episode, and I just started doing this like a month or so ago.

So I, so, you know, I have my podcast, your digital marketing coach.

I recorded an episode.

Live streaming changes everything, because when you take up the challenge of live streaming, here's what happens.

I know that you use Riverside.

I think you can live stream with Riverside.

I use streamyard.

It's extremely easy to use.

Basically, it begins by creating a schedule of scheduling a live stream.

So it's like, oh, I need a thumbnail now.

I need a title, I need a description.

It's like, I never needed that with a podcast before.

Let me go into one of my YouTube tools.

Let me do some search volume research.

Let me see what key.

Then it's like, okay, I'm going to create the thumbnail first, and then I need a catchy title.

I need to start thinking about what we're going to talk about.

So it forces you, actually, not just to prepare all that in advance, which is going to make you a better podcaster, but because it's live streamed, there is a different energy that at least as a host, your guests may not get it if they don't do a lot of that.

But as a host, it's like, this is Hollywood.

This is live stream.

This is going out to YouTube, the LinkedIn, the Facebook.

It's a very, very different dynamic.

It keeps me on my toes, and I think at the end of the day, it creates a better podcast.

And if there's any podcasters, and I know, Brett, you're, you're hooked into a lot of podcasters.

And I'd say the same challenge to you.

I literally started because I wanted to record my podcast for short form video.

So I.

I use Zoom for my interviews.

It's like, okay, you know what?

But I'm just going to use a quick time.

But then I think, you know what?

Why don't I just like live streaming on YouTube?

Because it'll be a way to archive the video.

I said, well, let me do this on Zoom.

It's like, oh, I can just click something on Zoom, and I can live stream on YouTube.

And that's how it all started.

And then I just started, right?

But it was after that first live stream that I was like, wow, this now lives in YouTube.

Now I could put a thumbnail on it.

It could look like any other YouTube video.

Now I can create not for short form video, but horizontal video.

If I have like a top ten tips, I can create ten different horizontal.

Now it's helping me create more YouTube content.

It's getting me additional views for the same content.

Because as podcasters, we want more people to listen to our content.

Why limit it to just audio listeners, right?

So in addition to all the other things you talked about, Brett, that we want to engage more, we create a deeper relationship when we can see someone.

So I do podcast interviews, like guest podcasts where people don't even show video.

It's like a Skype audio call.

They don't, they don't.

They're complete introverts.

And I get that.

I'm not going to force you to do it, but there's tremendous benefits.

In fact, my next episode is literally, I'm working on that thumbnail, the ROI of podcasting.

And it's something I think, Brett, you probably struggle with.

I struggle with, but when you see it as being the generator of content, that's going to fit all these needs.

I have a b, two b factional CMO client, and they haven't even launched their service yet.

They have a landing page, like early access.

They haven't even launched a blog.

And they want to do this right away because they see this tremendous value.

They want to build up the YouTube, build up the podcast, start to interview thought leaders in the industry that they can invite to speak on webinars.

And podcasting is the key.

You can just do live stream without the podcast, but you miss out on the.

Because people still, there's a certain type of person, especially a lot of business executives, that love the idea of being on a podcast.

If you want to like, make a relationship with a book author, reach out to them when they're about to publish a new book.

And if you have a podcast, chances are you can build a relationship with them by inviting them on your podcast to promote the new book, for example.

So podcasting has a lot of meaning that isn't intuitive.

But when you think about it from the perspective I just gave you, I hope you see this tremendous value.

And especially with AI, I mentioned video.

Audio is something that I know.

There's AI audio, there's AI video they're working on, but it's not the same.

It cannot build the deeper emotional relationship and resonate with people.

That audio code.

So not everyone's going to listen to a podcast, but that's fine.

If you get 50 people, listen to 100 people on a regular basis, that's you build your superfans from there.

Got you.

So, I mean, from all we talked about, like specifically AI, it seems like for right now it should be just limited to tasks that maybe you don't like or you just need help with.

You said ideation, I said show notes because I'm kind of like, I just don't like.

So I feel like that's for now.

That's where the sweet spot is.

And that's for what marketers should be, NPR pros looking to maybe help their press releases, looking to help out their marketing ad campaign, their blogs, their newsletters.

So I feel like that's the sweet spot for markers right now.

Now it could change in a few months because I feel like we're in that new intel.

You know, back in the nineties when intel was making like new chips every, like week and almost every day, it seems like it was like, I don't know what to buy because you keep, guys keep on coming out with a new one.

That's better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think AI best for short form content when it gets a little bit longer, like press releases, blog posts, gets a little trickier.

I know some companies that are doing it that are successful, but, you know, either way, if you do longer form content, like a blog or press release, you're going to have to reword it and you're probably going to have to add content to make it sound like it came from you and has some emotion.

With stuff like show notes, you could pretty much copy.

I mean, there are things you can copy and paste, right?

Which is great because I'm like you.

I want to focus on the art of the conversation, not the show notes, which I know I need to do.

And I didn't even do them for a while because, so that's what AI allows you to.

It allows you to do, it allows you to check the boxes of things you never wanted to do or don't want to do.

But yeah, I think right now, short form content long form content.

I am not using AI for any blog content.

Like zero blog content.

Right.

But like I said, I do know people that have, they've been successful.

I know someone that's written a book using AI.

You know, I still think at the end of the day you need to be the expert and it needs to come from your voice.

And if the AI can help you with ideation and maybe with fleshing out some content, a sentence here and there that you're going to revoice or a paragraph here and there that you're going to.

I think that's totally fine.

It's almost like a ghostwriter really.

And you know, they say what, two thirds of best selling books use ghost writers and you know, CEO's use ghost writers.

And if you use a virtual assistant for writing, then it replaces the virtual assistant.

So it's okay to use it.

No one's going to slap your wrist.

But just remember, it's not about just creating more content with it, right?

It's about you adding value and making better content and better ideas, better research, better distribution.

And so, fun question for you.

If you could actually create an AI personality, how would you create it?

That's really hard to do.

I haven't found out a way to do it.

I know that Jasper brand voice.

I think you add a information about your company.

Maybe if you already have a company introduction in a brand voice, you could actually, and I have an experiment, but you could probably tell chat GPD this is my company's brand voice.

Please read this next paragraph, and then following that, I want you to write a new paragraph about this topic in the same tone of my company's brand voice.

And that would probably be a great way to start.

I haven't tried that experiment, but I'm pretty sure it would generate something.

And where can people find you online?

Well, like I said, your digital since you're all listening to this podcast, your digital marketing coach podcast is my podcast.

I'm also Neal Schaefer pretty much everywhere.

So YouTube, LinkedIn, Twitter, Nealschaffer.

And I also have a blog@nealshafer.com, dot.

All right, any final thoughts for listeners?

No, I think, you know, don't be afraid to change.

Don't be afraid of innovation.

You should be pouncing on it and thriving together with it.

So get on AI before you start talking about banning TikTok, use it yourself.

Do keyword searches as if you were on Google or YouTube.

You're going to be pleasantly surprised at what you see.

I know that I was so before you, you know, talk harshly about social media, try it out yourself, and I think that you will see things very, very different.

And yes, podcasting is for real.

It's not going away.

It's not going to become viral like TikTok.

But I agree with you that I do think that millennials are probably the generation that listens to it most than even Gen X, which would probably be number two.

So it's not a Gen Z thing by any means.

But yeah, I do think that there is an audience for it.

And once again, even if there isn't, even if only five people listen, but it gets you 50 meetings with thought leaders in your industry or potential clients, there's the ROI.

So hopefully that's given you the confidence and the impetus to go out there and start your own.

Well, thanks, Neil, for joining digital coffee marketing brew and sharing your knowledge on AI and social media and digital marketing and podcasting.

Time for another cup, my friend.

All right, and thank you, as always, for listening.

Join us next month as we talk to another great thought leader.

And as always, just subscribe to all your favorite podcasting apps for this podcast, and we'll see you next month.

Later, guys.